This is an updated version of a post from earlier this month. Since then Steve Hartman has provided further information and corrected for some errors.
Hartman is an award-winning sportscaster and writer who covered Super Bowls, Final Fours and MLB All-Star games. He was one of the "Loose Cannons" a fixture of Southern California radio for decades.
Dave Anderson, a writer/columnist for the New York Times, was a long-time Hall-of-Fame voter. He is the original source for players who were close to election but ultimately fell short in the given years.
He kept notes over his time on the committee and eventually shared them with Steve Hartman who also found a handful of players who survived the cut from 15 to 10. In several years there were ties in teh voting and there would be a Final 11, not a Final 10.
The Hall of Fame process is that active players would be voted on and the top 14 would make the finalist list. An additional slot was for a player who emerged from the senior committee making it a Final 15.
That group of 15 was then narrowed to ten. And then from ten to six (early years it was five) with the senior candidate automatically in the final seven.
Those seven were then voted on with a "yes" or "no". Players who received 80 percent or more were elected to the Hall and in the Summer, induction in Canton.
These were his findings.
Players known to have survived the cut from the Final 15 to ten (or eleven) and noted if they were a finalist. A "Finalist" is someone who got to the yes/no stage of the voting and did not get the required 80 percent needed for election.
Senior candidates make it to the final (yes-no?) round automatically and are not included in the "Final 10" (or eleven).
pre-1971
no information currently known
1972
Dante Lavelli—Finalist, not elected
Joe Schmidt—Finalist, not elected
1973
Lou Groza—Finalist, not elected
Ole Haugsrud—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate—Never inducted
“Night Train” Lane—Finalist, not elected
Tony Morabito—Finalist, not elected—Never inducted
1974
Roosevelt Brown—Finalist, not elected
Dante Lavelli—Finalist, not elected
Jim Taylor—Finalist, not elected
1975
Jim Ringo—Finalist, not elected
Clark Shaughnessy—Finalist, not elected—Never inducted
1976
Willie Davis—Finalist, not elected
Weeb Ewbank—Finalist, not elected
Jim Ringo—Finalist, not elected
1977
Weeb Ewbank—Finalist, not elected
1978
Charley Conerly—Finalist, not elected—Never inducted
1979
Marshall Goldberg—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate—Never inducted
Paul Hornung—Finalist, not elected
Pete Rozelle—Finalist, not elected
1980
Lou Creekmur—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate
Paul Hornung—Finalist, not elected
Don Maynard—Finalist, not elected
1981
Doug Atkins—Finalist, not elected
Pete Rozelle—Finalist, not elected
1982
Sid Gillman—Finalist, not elected
Pete Rozelle—Finalist, not elected
1983
Joe Namath—Finalist, not elected
Mac Speedie—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate
Gene Hickerson—Made final ten
Paul Hornung—Made final ten
John Henry Johnson—Made final ten
Pete Rozelle—Made final ten
1984
Fran Tarkenton—Finalist, not elected
Joe Namath—Finalist, not elected
Willie Lanier—Finalist, not elected
1985
Paul Hornung—Finalist, not elected
Fran Tarkenton—Finalist, not elected
1986
Len Dawson—Finalist, not elected
Don Maynard—Finalist, not elected
Larry Csonka—Made final eleven
Al Davis—Made final eleven
Tom Mack—Made final eleven
*Missing the fourth member of the final eleven
1987
All seven finalists elected
Fred Biletnikoff—Made final ten
Al Davis—Made final ten
Bob Griese—Made final ten
Alan Page—Made final ten
1988
Bob Griese—Finalist, not elected
Lou Rymkus—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate—Never inducted
Art Shell—Finalist, not elected
George Allen—Made final ten
Al Davis—Made final ten
Bud Grant—Made final ten
*Missing the fourth member of the final ten
1989
Bob Griese—Finalist, not elected
Ted Hendricks—Finalist, not elected
Henry Jordan—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate
Al Davis—Made final ten
Bud Grant—Made final ten
Tom Mack—Made final ten
Tom Mack—Made final ten
*Missing the fourth member of the final ten
1990
Class of seven, a tie for the top 10
Al Davis—Made final eleven
Dan Deirdorf—Made final eleven
Larry Little—Made final eleven
Ron Yary—Made final eleven
1991
Al Davis—Finalist, not elected
John Mackey—Finalist, not elected
Lem Barney—Made final eleven
Bob Brown—Made final eleven
Carl Eller—Made final eleven
LC Greenwood—Made final eleven
John Riggins—Made final eleven
1992
Willie Galimore—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate—Never inducted
Charlie Joiner—Finalist, not elected
Tom Mack—Finalist, not elected
Bob Brown—Made final ten
Dan Deirdorf—Made final ten
Carl Eller—Made final team
Bud Grant—Made final ten
1993
Jackie Smith—Finalist, not elected
Dick Stanfel—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate
Bob Brown—Made final ten
Charlie Joiner—Made final ten
Mel Renfro—Made final ten
Dwight Stephenson—Made final ten
1994
Dan Dierdorf—Finalist, not elected
Carl Eller—Made final ten
Charlie Jouner—Made final ten
Tom Mack—Made final ten
Mel Renfro—Made final ten
1995
Dan Dierdorf—Finalist, not elected
Dwight Stephenson—Finalist, not elected
L.C. Greenwood—Made final ten
Mike Haynes—Made final ten
Charlie Joiner—Made final ten
Mel Renfro—Made final ten
1996
Mike Haynes—Finalist, not elected
Dwight Stephenson—Finalist, not elected
Tom Mack—Made final ten
Lynn Swann—Made final ten
Mike Webster—Made final ten
Jack Youngblood—Made final ten
1997
Jerry Kramer—Finalist, not elected, Senior Candidate
Dwight Stephenson—Finalist, not elected
Lynn Swann—Finalist, not elected
Carl Eller—Made final ten
Paul Krause—Made final ten
Ozzie Newsome—Made final ten
John Stallworth—Made final ten
1998
Ozzie Newsome—Finalist, not elected
Dan Rooney—Finalist, not elected
George Allen—Made final eleven
Carl Eller—Made final eleven
Tom Mack—Made final eleven
John Stallworth—Made final eleven
Jack Youngblood—Made final eleven
The Hall of Fame has published this data from 1999 to the present.
From Brian wolf ...
ReplyDeleteIn hindsight its hard to believe players like Schmidt, Lane, Brown, Taylor, Ringo, Davis, Lanier, Eller, Shell and Youngblood would ever have to wait for election but others were simply ahead of them.
Stabler and Conerly were so close to election but the Snake had to wait too late ...
Its somewhat uplifting that dominant players like Stephenson and Stanfel finally got elected after short careers and as you guys have pointed out, Stephenson opens the door for other short career hopefuls like Davis, Easley, Boselli and now Sharpe.
BW ...
ReplyDeleteGreat Judge and Jury debate on Steve McNair on TalkOfFameTwo
Steve McNair comes up short but Fisher and the Titans are to blame ... they never gave their QB enough weapons to work with, only George and Mason and McNair still won 96 career games counting postseason and ran for nearly 4000 yards on a running team that liked to throw to tight ends because the team could never develop receivers, going back to the days of Moon and The Greatest Show On Turf. Imagine if McNair could have worked with Ernest Givens or Drew Hill early in his career?
Until Mason, who has his own case and fearlessly went over the middle, McNair only got sporatic production out of the position
do you have the same info for after 1998?
ReplyDeleteThe Hall of Fame has it...go to their website and you can download a booklet with that and tons more goo info.
DeleteLinks often don't make it past the spam filters on blogs so if you google: 2022 PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME MEDIA GUIDE that should find a pdf that has a ton of info.
DeleteJohn: some of this info is inconsistent with the HOF's website (which I've used for research purposes). For instance, Lou Rymkus was a senior finalists in 1988 but not 1998 (Tommy McDonald was the seniors finalist that year and was elected). I'll continue to review, but this info may need to be taken with a grain of salt. That said, thank you for sharing.
ReplyDeleteBrian: it was dereliction of duty that guys like Schmidt, Lane, Lanier, Brown, Tarkenton, Dawson, Hendricks, etc. were voted down. They didn't wait in favor of someone else. They were made to wait for an empty slot. This is the true cause of the "senior backlog." Tons of wasted slots (mostly because of petty squabbling btw voters and btw voters and players) that meant highly worth candidates were debated over multiple years and other players were delayed "getting in the room" or never even got there. Dr. Z regularly complained about those voters. Happy those days seem behind us.
From Brian wolf ...
DeleteI agree with your comments.
This is a comment as well from John's take on senior snubs on TOFTWO ...
At least Conerly played before 1950 and was more important to Lombardi's career than most voters realize. Glad he made the cut though Lewellen and Dilweg didnt but like a guy theorized on the Zoneblitz site, they have to wait until Sharpe or Isbell is elected to collect more votes. Sharpe may get it though 31 seniors could shake up the finalist list. Its sad that Benton is forgotten as well because despite the war taking talented defensive players, his accomplishments were underrated.
BW ...
DeleteJackson getting snubbed again doesnt surprise me despite eight receivers making the list. Having a teammate that benefitted from his play making the list, didnt do him any favors.
"For instance, Lou Rymkus was a senior finalists in 1988 but not 1998 (Tommy McDonald was the seniors finalist that year and was elected)."
DeleteYou are 100% right on that. It was my mistake for not paying attention and checking. I was even there are the SB when McDonald was elected so that is on me.
Also, today I spoke to Steve and he gave me further information and also corrected a few more mistakes I'd made.
So please do check and let me know of any other errors you think there are. But we think this update fixes the error you brought up plus a few others.
Appreciate you pointing out the Rykmus/McDonald error---it reminded me I needed to talk to Hartman about getting the rest of the info...so thank you
Thanks, John. So far, I don't see any other "errors," but the data is simply incomplete. For example, the Hall had a very small class in 1972 (only 4, including the first senior candidate, Ace Parker), which means that should have been another Finalist besides Lavelli and Schmidt (unless the maximum dropped from seven to six when the senior category was created, which would make no sense but is possible). And obviously, there were three additional players in the top 10 besides the 4 elected, Lavelli, Schmidt, and Speedie.
DeleteThat said, the data is welcome and makes my research more accurate, which I greatly appreciate. Thank you again.
Just found something else "odd" that might be an "error." In 1992, the Hall inducted four (and rejected the senior). Therefore, unless that class had the possibility of being 8 (which doesn't seem correct), Joiner, Mack, and Walsh couldn't have all been finalists (along with Galimore the rejected senior). Thanks for any insight you might have.
Delete" So far, I don't see any other "errors," but the data is simply incomplete"
DeleteYes, the data is incomplete ... I will check but pretty sure as far as finalists it is correct.
I read a post theat you were wroking on a book...if you email me I can put you in touch with Steve ... he, I am sure, would be glad to talk to you. His knowledge on this (and other Halls of Fame) is incredbible.
but in early days there was not always a final 7 ... it was a final six on occasion...at time they had a minumim of three ... and that changed. The rules were not 100% consistent until mid-to-late 1970s.
As for 1992 Walsh wout on in the first reduction vote...appreciate you pointing it out...just carelessness by me. But let me know if there are any others things you think might be missing.
John: Thanks again for this information. I've completed my review and updated my records (I was traveling last week). I don't see any additional clear errors, but there is an odd fluctuation between 5 and 6 finalists per year. It appears almost random, which causes me to wonder if there are a few "missing" finalists. Here are the totals per year for the data you provided (not counting senior candidates):
Delete1972 - five finalists
1973-75 - six finalists
1976-78 - five finalists
1979-80 - six finalists
1981-82 - five finalists
1983-98 - six finalists
Any clarification you or Steve can provide would be greatly appreciated.
Finally, thank you for the invitation to speak with Steve, but I'm not working on a book. I just have a massive spreadsheet that I keep refining with additional information. I started out trying to establish my hypothesis that the 1980s are under represented in the hall (which I can now prove), but then it became a pastime. Thanks again.
I have wondered myself, best explanation is probable ties 73-74-75, 79-80 with not as many voters on panel that makes most sense
DeleteThat does make some sense, especially when the panel was regularly not using the entire slate of candidates. Do you know if the HOF has more information? And would it be willing to share that info?
DeleteThank you again, John.
I know Steve has tried to get everything the Hall has. He's pushed...he even found the 1969 final 17 and the 1967 quasi finalist lists--though he found them on his own, they didn't know about them he found them in a file and said "look at these"...the 1968 list, if there is one, is missing.
DeleteHe's gotten all they have, so they say.
Is there more? I bet there could be but in some files somewhere. But also, it's been years since anyone I know has checked. Maybe they have more...I just don't know one way or the other but I'd suggest you check with the library guys there. Who knows? There could be a trove of new information.
BW ...
ReplyDeleteGreat Judge And Jury debate on TOFTWO about the greatest head coach of all time ...
I believe Paul Brown was the greatest innovator but not the greatest head coach ...
For me its two part ...
In terms of winning consistency and winning over multiple generations, its Don Shula hands down ...
In terms of historic importance and winning big games its Weeb Ewbank, though Halas, Lombardi, Noll and Walsh also are in the discussion.
What Belichick has achieved though, is unprecedented and its hard not to judge him #1 ...
There is no doubt, that his innovation and coaching tree has set Brown apart but I feel he won BECAUSE of his great assistants, like Collier and Ewbank and others that dont get enough credit. Still, Brown's mark on the NFL is assured and you always wonder how many more championships he could have won had he not given away so many talented players?
As always there is no "right" answer, any one of those guys could be mentioned - Belichick has far more knowledge because there is so much more knowledge to be learned...but it's simply definition of terms. .. I interpreted "great" as in all the things--winning, innovations ... etc---but if question was "best coach" I have have a different answer.
DeleteGreat, to me, is a bigger word. But, if someone else says Bill B or Shula or whoever .. I'd have no problem with it... they could be right.
Sometimes it's just a "call".
"the hot stove league" is apparently in session Brian....(which is a really good thing!).....personally, I think it's kind of a toss-up between Brown and Belechick for the top spot....the latter has lasted and accomplished a vast body of work over an extremely long time....his 7 titles are equal to Browns 4 AAFC and 3 NFL and one can argue I think either way on whether doing it against fewer or more teams is more significant...clearly his longevity is far superior to Brown's but....the quality of Paul's coaching tree and his impact on 2 franchises is unsurpassed in history.....your guy Weeb (mine too until the late 60s of course) is the unquestionable #1 in significant games...arguably the 3 most important games in history are the 58 and 68 championship games (the latter played on 1/12/69), and Weeb won all 3 (3-0 all-time in final title games)...Brown won the opener against Philly in 50 which I'd place as 3rd on the subjective list....we disagree on Shula...a. he won for a long time, but Halas won titles in 1921 and the 30s and the 40s and in 1963 (TJ's all time favorite Bear team)....plus ("sour grapes" bias alert here:....Shula lost "championship" games in 64, 65, 57, and the abovementioned SBIII. He's in the top 10, but no way Shula ranks above Brown or Belichick....how many title games did Noll or Walsh lose? and on the subject of coaching trees from multiple title game winners, how 'bout Bill Parcells? Belichick , Coughlin, Peyton? thoughts?
DeleteBW ...
ReplyDeleteDiscussions on coaching and player greats are always cool.
Yes, Belichick and Halas won over a long time too but with Halas, he didnt have anyone to fire him. Weeb won 4 Championship games including the AFL Championship that allowed him revenge over Rosenbloom and Shula. Not a consistent winner but could build a team from nothing. Gibbs and Walsh were great at expanding offensive innovation from Brown and Coryell, while Noll and Landry built great, consistent teams. Curley Lambeau still doesnt get enough credit and Buddy Parker deserves to finally be enshrined this year but its doubtful. Voters just dont care about pre-60s, NFL football.
(from jholtgym)…clearly the wrong people are voters
DeleteBW ...
DeleteThats the question for anyone who knows, though I dont buy the Hall Of Fame's answer ...
Why arent the voters more historians rather than beat, sportswriters? What makes some newspaper Joe-Shmoe more qualified to pick players than anyone else? Are they vetted based on football and football history experience or just signing up to endorse their teams?
Current bylaws stipulate that voters are composed from beat writers from each team plus the president of the PFWA. They have also at-large voters most began is writers for teams that moved. So when Colts left Baltimore John Steadman sayed on as a HOF voter and one for Indianapolis was added to be the "Colts' voter". They added more at large voters to expand the body for various reasons, among them to address the lack of diversity on the panel.
DeleteThe bylaws presume beat writers from teams make the best voters. They do that rather than have a large body like the BBWA who has hundreds of members so they could have an annual meeting to discuss candiddates rather than them just mail in ballots.
When the HOF was established, there were no real historians with which to confer, and film study was not an option. So it fell to beat reporters who were often influenced by power brokers like Halas, Marshall, Mara, etc. It hasnt really changed much but needs to, IMO. Not sure how to do it since there are a multitude of "historians" out there, not to mention self proclaimed experts ...
ReplyDeleteBW ...
ReplyDeleteYes, but its about justice, not team homerism like John points out ... Why cant a beat writer put in a Howley with 4-6 1st team All-Pro honors over a Harry Carson, who mostly had second team?
These guys have the research material, but they only want to pick players who they saw growing up or covered, I get that but others are more deserving ...